another insignificant, seldom-read weblog
I am considering purchasing a shirt for myself. After a bit of searching, I narrowed the selection down to a few that I like to greater and lesser degrees. I thought I would ask my extremely broad, varied, and attentive audience which one(s) they like best.
I’ve been keeping a prayer list for several years now. “What? An atheist with a prayer list?” It’s not what you think. The list is the prayers of people who have prayed for me. I hadn’t updated it since July of 2007, but it’s now current. Check it out, here, or find it on the left menu.
I recently discovered that Yahoo changed how voicemails are delivered. Now they arrive in my inbox, which means I can have the file without any ties to the software. Previously, I was required to access all messages through Yahoo Messenger. Now I can share the first voicemail I ever received. The date has been lost (by Yahoo) so I don’t know when it was recorded. I guess it was approximately 18 months ago.
A christian called sbeverly wanted to comment on my atheism and express his concern for my well-being on “day of judgment.” According to his page on MySpace, he is a pastor. His voice reminds me of the Louis Skolnick from Revenge of the Nerds.
Notice how open he seems to dialog. It is possible that he didn’t expect a response. I initiated a conversation with him through instant messages. After taking the time to point out the errors and misunderstandings he made in his message, he suddenly became unwilling to participate. In short, he ran, while blaming me for being the problem. He made a fool of himself, and I enjoyed every minute of it.
If anyone would like to leave a voicemail for me on Yahoo, I can be found using this ID.
QuizFarm.com has one of those rinky-dink, super reliable tests which asks, “What kind of atheist are you?” I took the quiz about seven months ago and posted the results on my 360° blog. In the transition from Yahoo to WordPress, “organizing” things here and there, I lost the screenshot of my previous results. How could I know what kind of atheist I am!? The solution was to take the quiz again. Now I can rest easy knowing how to define myself. Besides, I found the quiz mildly interesting. I managed to rank as a scientific atheist who is closer to being a theist than an angry or apathetic atheist. Now that is interesting.
What would have to happen for you to start believing in a God?
That was the question asked in The Friendly Atheist’s recent contest. Check out the winners and their submissions here. Maybe I’m biased, but I think #3 is the best.
The following exchange occurred on 30 December 2007 at around 11:00a est in Yahoo’s Christian Chat:13. This is a typical example of Christian intolerance and ignorance directed towards an atheist. To me, it’s funny how this person tried to make me out to be a bad person.
jsbrown28625: 30, male, atheist in NC, USA here – If you have questions or comments concerning (my) atheism, feel free to contact me through my profile or a private message.
californiachristian: js, if YOU have any questions about giving your life to Jesus, just ask the room.
jsbrown28625: californiachristian, Thank you for the offer, but I have asked such questions long ago.
californiachristian: brown, then your wasting your time in here… no one who knows Gods TRUTH is going to reject him for your selfdeceiving athiesm
jsbrown28625: californiachristian, You should scroll up and read all of my posts. I have asked no one to reject “Gods TRUTH” for “selddeceiving athiesm.”
jsbrown28625: californiachristian, Your assumptions have you led you into error. If you wish to apologize to me, I am ready.
californiachristian: lol, brown
californiachristian: brown, YOUR assumptions have led you into sin. when YOUR ready to appologize, GOD is ready
jsbrown28625: californiachristian, There is no “GOD” in my user list.
jsbrown28625: californiachristian, It’s clear to me how you feel about me, so I will end this exchange now. I have no wish to cause trouble or be mistreated here.
jsbrown28625: californiachristian, I wish you a pleasant day. Goodbye.
[after about two minutes]
californiachristian: brown, I thought you were LEAVING
jsbrown28625: californiachristian, You thought wrong. I simply ended my exchange with you. I said nothing about leaving.
jsbrown28625: californiachristian, If you don’t want to see my ID and messages on your chat screen, you should add me to your ignore list.
californiachristian: lol, brown, then you LIED since your talking to me AGAIN
jsbrown28625: californiachristian, You must be joking.
This is what a christmas gift from an atheist (my brother) looks like. Few gifts are enjoyable inside AND out. What was inside is mine, but I wanted to share the decoration. Enjoy!
I was asked recently to share my account of how I became an atheist. I agreed to do so, thinking it would be easy. Ha! I had some trouble recounting it all. Some of the details are lost in the recesses of my head, and some just weren’t worth including. If I had known those events would have meaning later, I would have paid more attention! It isn’t written as well as I would like, but it’s the best I could do with the amount of patience I had at the time. Ugh, writing the long version would have killed me.
For your edification and delight… my path to atheism.
When I was four and a half years old, my mother left my father, and she took me with her. She was concerned about gaining custody of me in the divorce. She began trying to cover all bases that related to her perceived fitness as a mother. One effort was to begin attending church. Surely a religious mother was better than a nonreligious one. That’s how I was exposed to Christianity.
She raised me and forced me to attend church. I attended Sunday school and the service every week. I did this up until about age twelve, when I was considered old enough to stay home alone some of the time. Since I didn’t like church, I stayed home every chance I could. I still attended on odd occasions and holidays, but mostly to please my mother and grandparents. I did enjoy the Christmas eve service though.
Regardless of my displeasure for church, I was still taught the ideas. What I learned in church, from family members, friends, and culture to that point could be fairly described as mild to moderate indoctrination. I believed in the Christian god (and / or Jesus). By the time I was sixteen, I stopped going to church completely. It bored me, and wasn’t worth trading for sleep. I considered myself a Christian, like most of my peers, but never did much about it. I understood that being “good” meant being a Christian, and I certainly considered myself “good.”
A few years later, I had an enlightening experience. I was in a friend’s garage, sitting around and smoking pot with him and another friend. Somehow, the subject of “god” came up. The question was asked, “Do you believe in god?” I can remember how quickly all of us professed Christianity without hesitation. It was a given to us, though we didn’t recognize our hypocrisy. At the time, it meant nothing to me. We moved on to other things, and did as stoners do, laughing hysterically and spacing out.
I was in my early twenties, still claiming to be a Christian, and still doing almost nothing about it. I prayed from time to time, which was an tendency leftover from my childhood. I became somewhat interested in Christian claims, and began asking questions. I asked my mother, by then a genuine Christian, and she couldn’t answer most of them. I was just curious at first, but then began to realize just how many questions I had. My interest in it came and went for a while, though I never took any of it too seriously.
Then, one day, I remembered my brief conversation about god with my friends in the garage. That was the moment that I realized how hypocritical the Christian part of me was. I had been claiming for so long to be a Christian, but I didn’t live as one. I considered the Christian beliefs I had to be important, but I didn’t know why. I had more or less been on auto-pilot to that point, being just a product of my environment. I knew that a part of myself was artificial. I had been taught to believe that god was real, and all that went with it. I believed it for other people, and not for myself. None of it really much at all to me. I decided to scrap it all and begin again.
I started out on my own to study the bible, talk to god, and live my life as a Christian. I did it for myself. I intended to become a real Cristian, and build a relationship with god. Interestingly, I never considered the possibility of failure. That I might not find god was not even a consideration. I was totally optimistic. I figured that if I actually took it seriously, then I would figure things out. The plan was to put aside my doubts and my questions and focus on living according to what Christ taught. I thought that if I found god, then the questions wouldn’t really matter.
Not long after beginning my new quest in the religion, I met a guy. He was my girlfriend’s friend’s boyfriend. We had things in common, and got along pretty well. Some time after meeting him, my girlfriend noticed that I was taking Christianity seriously. She suggested that maybe he could help me along. I didn’t know when I met him that he was a pretty serious and knowledgeable Christian. She talked with her friend, who talked to him. The next week he stopped by and we had nice talk about Christianity. It was motivating and got me fired up. He also gave me a book – “The Case For Christ” by Lee Strobel.
I read through Strobel’s book and loved every line. It was answering lots of the questions I had, as well as ones I hadn’t thought of. He made what seemed to me to be an excellent case for the existence and divinity of Christ. It was exactly what I wanted. I finished it and was “on fire” for Jesus. I felt like I was really close to finding god, and I started praying more and more. I read and studied the bible regularly, and I shared what I knew with others. It felt like it was my purpose.
After a few months of positive energetic devotion, I started to lose some steam. I had new questions and my doubt was becoming difficult to ignore. My solution was to read Strobel’s book again. I also bought his next one, “Case For Faith.” After reading them, I was right back where I was before. I was fired up and confident. Again, Strobel’s words were exactly what I needed to hear. Unfortunately, the feeling didn’t last as long the second time. I was still having doubts and wanting to ask questions.
I talked a few time with the friend who gave me the book. He had entered seminary school, so I felt like he was a good resource. I asked him some questions, and he offered decent responses. Some I accepted, and some I didn’t. At that time, I also began studying apologetics and hanging out in Christian chat rooms. I tried to help others with their faith problems, and hoped I would help myself in the process. Once again, this boosted my faith and confidence. I felt like I was doing what I supposed to be.
I was beginning to feel like I was getting close to god. I was praying pretty much all day long. I talked to god as if he was a friend at my side. I asked for guidance, and I saw the world work in a way that revealed his wisdom and intervention. But studying apologetics was causing a problem at the same time. I was learning about common objections the Christianity, which exposed me to other points of view. I remember learning about other god-men messiahs who were very similar to Jesus in description. It made me curious about why one messiah was special and real, and the others weren’t. But I accepted the apologetic answers and tried not to think about it.
So I went on living like that for months, no longer fired up, but content and convinced that I was pleasing god. I talked to him, and I felt like he talked to me. It was an amazing experience, but it didn’t last. One morning in the shower, while talking to god, I had an epiphany. I realized in one instant that I had been deluding myself. Over the course of trying to be a Christian, I had steadily been praying and looking at the world around me for evidence that my prayers had been answered. As time had passed, I did it more and more often, and with greater things. But none of it ever actually happened. I was looking at the world with rose-colored glasses. God hadn’t answered my prayers, or talked to me. I had no relationship with him. I was doing it all myself. I was alone. For whatever reason, all of this hit me at once like a punch in the face. I needed positive feedback so badly that I created it myself without even realizing.
I decided to scale back my eagerness and see if god was really there. I still prayed and studied the bible, but less often. Instead of trying to fit the world into what I wanted to see, I looked at it as it was. I didn’t feel special at all. I didn’t see god anymore. I stopped ignoring my doubts and questions. I began searching for answers to them online. I still felt like god might be out there somewhere, but that there was a reason I was having trouble.
I studied free will to help me learn about myself in relation to my faith. That’s when I learned about Calvinism. I thought for a short time that maybe it explained everything. If I wasn’t chosen by god to be saved, then it explained my difficulties. It wasn’t my fault. Though election solved my problem, I couldn’t stick with it. I couldn’t make Calvinstic theology work with the rest of the teachings of the Jesus. The contradiction I saw refuted either the religion, or Calvinism, so I dropped the latter.
Once again, I talked to my friend in seminary. He prayed over the phone for me, and I remember feeling so unsatisfied. It seemed useless, but I went along. Not long after that, my girlfriend visited him and her friend. She brought back a book that he sent for me – “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist” by Geisler & Turek. It’s an apologetics book, and I was happy to receive it. I had high hopes that it would set me back on course. Reading it helped me feel better. It was more scientific-minded, which was a new perspective for me. That was a powerful testament to the truth of Christianity and the existence of god. It also dealt with atheism, and that was new to me too… my first exposure.
But the book wasn’t enough. I felt lost and confused because I didn’t feel god. I didn’t see anything in my life that the Christians around me said I would. Why? So I continued learning apologetics and some theology online. I learned about agnosticism, and decided to use the term for myself because I was uncertain. I stopped calling myself a Christian, though I still believed to an extent. I still had the idea that I just wasn’t getting it.
Believe it or not, I went back and read Case For Christ again. But I did it from a more reasonable perspective. Instead of just letting the text tell me what I wanted to hear, I actually judged its claims and content. I was surprised to find holes in the arguments, and convenient omissions. I was so angry that I had been naive the first two times I read it. But I was trying to feed my desire to be a Christian rather than paying attention to the details. After finishing it for the third time, I found it to be a poor attempt to defend belief in Christ. So I pointed my reason toward I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. Surprised again, I found more problems and omissions in the arguments. And that was why atheists were wrong?!
I decided to investigate the other side. I went to the library and checked out “Why Atheism?” by George H. Smith. Much of it read as if I had written it myself. The questions I had about Christianity, religion, and faith he presented were the same that I had asked. I realized that I wasn’t alone in my doubt. I also realized that atheism wasn’t the wickedness I thought it was. It was honest doubt about the issues. It was sincere and free inquiry. It was me, except for the little bit of faith and belief that remained in me. I decided that I was still just agnostic (I was ignorant of the meaning then) and left it at that.
Not long after, I read a book by Charles Templeton called “Farewell to God.” It was about a man who was a preacher for much of his life who eventually rejected the Christian faith. It was enlightening, and much like Smith’s book, I identified with much of what he said. I learned that questioning and rejecting Christianity wasn’t unheard of. Templeton called himself agnostic in the book, and so I stuck with the label for awhile longer myself.
From then on, I lived my life in an effort to be good as best that I could reason it. I thought about my options and made the best decisions. I still had a small amount of faith, belief, and hope that god existed. But because I had tried my best, I didn’t know what else to do. I thought it best to leave it to god. If he wanted me, he knew where to find me.
I went on learning here and there about objections to Christianity as well as the position of atheism. Unbelief seemed to have the better arguments. In the process, I also learned about logic and reason, how to apply it, and how to spot invalid arguments. That enabled me to deal with some bad claims on my own, in the religious realm, and elsewhere. I also studied the tenets of other religions, and found that they had to say a lot of the same supernatural things, but in different ways. It all began to seem the same to me. None of the religions could support their claims. If it made sense to reject Islam or Hinduism because of a lack of evidence or poor reasoning, then why not Christianity?
My perspective changed. I sought the truth, whatever it was, instead of deciding what was true and then trying to find justification. If god could be proven, then it was okay with me. But the burden of proof wasn’t to be set aside for religion. It was no longer special – no longer off limits. After awhile, I realized that I no longer had any belief that the Christian god, or any other, existed. I was without belief, and that is what defines atheism. I finally worked up my nerve and told my mother. She was nothing short of horrified, actually saying, “I would have preferred if you had just been gay.” Anyway, that was it. I was openly atheistic, and finally accepted my position.
Admitting to my disbelief was the most liberating thing I have ever done. Nothing else has ever made me feel so free.
shining_warrior: hello, i just wanted to drop you a message and tell you i am praying for you and hope you find truth and life here on earth
atheist_jsbrown: What is your prayer?
atheist_jsbrown: You should know that I have already found both truth and life here on Earth.
atheist_jsbrown: No need to pray for that! 
shining_warrior: i pray that you will know that you are loved and were created by a kivind all-powerful God who has great plans for you
atheist_jsbrown: Anything else?
shining_warrior: Yah lots of thing but i bet you could guess all the rest
atheist_jsbrown: I am interested in your entire prayer.
atheist_jsbrown: I invite you to pray all of it now, and type it as you go.
shining_warrior: what is your name?
atheist_jsbrown: <—- J
shining_warrior: Lord Jesus, I ask you right now to show J your power, to open his eyes the the one truth, yourself, I ask you to protect him always in everything he does and do not let him leave this earth without his soul being saved. show your mighty power to him now, hit him with your holy spirit right now in the name of jesus. set his heart ablaze with you
shining_warrior: you will be hit with the spirit of truth, brother, i proclaim it in the name of Jesus, you will see things you have never seen before
shining_warrior: you will realize the truth and realize how wonderful your life is meant to be. your destiny will come into place and u will do great things in ur lifetime
shining_warrior: u were createed for a great purpose, and i call u into that purpose in the name of jesus, stop choosing this world and all its traps
shining_warrior: recieve the truth now
atheist_jsbrown: All done then?
shining_warrior: sure
atheist_jsbrown: If you don’t mind, I would like to know a few basic things about you.
atheist_jsbrown: Most important is your religion and denomination / sect.
shining_warrior: religion causes division, people change religions like they change clothes, there is only one truth, i only claim to have Jesus and the bible, no religion
atheist_jsbrown: So you are a Christian then.
shining_warrior: yeah
atheist_jsbrown: That’s a religion.
shining_warrior: maybe so but i dont claim it, atheism is considered a religion too
atheist_jsbrown: …According to the common usage of the word offerd by the average dictionary, it’s a religion. That is what I am going by.
atheist_jsbrown: No, atheism isn’t considered a religion by any suc definition. This, however, is irrelevant at this time.
atheist_jsbrown: We’re almost finished.
atheist_jsbrown: What is your age, gender, and location?
atheist_jsbrown: Share only what want.
shining_warrior: 21 f tn, what is your purpose for knowing?
atheist_jsbrown: I document the prayers of people like yourself. I have been doing so for years.
shining_warrior: what for?
atheist_jsbrown: The list is more interesting when I know about the people involved.
atheist_jsbrown: If your prayer is answered, then I know who to thank. If it isn’t, then it goes along with the rest as apparent failure.
atheist_jsbrown: Either way, I benefit by keeping up with them.
shining_warrior: well i assure you, my prayer is gonna be different than others, because you are about to be hit with something u have never experienced before, my friend
atheist_jsbrown: Yes, well I’ve heard that before.
atheist_jsbrown: It might surprise you how many people say the very same things.
atheist_jsbrown: You will be #80 on the list. I post it online.
atheist_jsbrown: Would you like to be informed when I update the list with your prayer?
shining_warrior: sure but it won’t happen
atheist_jsbrown: What won’t happen?
shining_warrior: i wont be added to the list well, maybe u wil add it but then u will have to remove it
atheist_jsbrown: Why is that?
shining_warrior: ur life is fixing to change and i am positive about it not just a hope i know
atheist_jsbrown: We can only wait and see what happens.
atheist_jsbrown: Success or failure – all prayers go on the list and remain there.
atheist_jsbrown: If you decide you want to add prayers later, just let me know. I am happy to update the list anytime.
shining_warrior: alright, i wish u well, and ask u to keep ur heart open to whatever happens in the next couple of days
atheist_jsbrown: I think you mean my mind i.e. to be objective.
atheist_jsbrown: I try always to remain objective.
atheist_jsbrown: Thank you for contributing to the list.
atheist_jsbrown: I wish you a pleasant day.
A nice girl from the LDS church named Rachel called me last night. She was doing a follow up on me. Months ago (maybe a year) I requested free copies of the King James version of the Bible and the book of Mormon. I did so for the purpose of learning about the Mormons so I would be prepared if I encounter them.
She wanted to know if I was enjoying the books. I told her that the small amount of reading I had done in them was useful. Then I let her know that I am an atheist, and why I requested them. I also told her that I had helped a Mormon woman successfully deconvert. She was literally speechless! Anyway, since I had her on the phone, I decided to make things difficult by challenging some of her Mormon beliefs. Regardless of my question, her response was always, “I just know that it’s a true book.”
I like “true books.” I want to read “true books.” Was this a “true book?” I was excited. I asked how she knew that the book of Mormon was true. She said that she wanted to witness that she had read Moroni 10:3-5 and prayed concerning the passage. This led to a feeling that she had that made her feel sure that it’s a true book! Wow!
[3] Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
[4] And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
[5] And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
I hear this same sort of talk from people of various religions. It’s a personal experience. It’s a special connection between “god” and the individual. It all sounds amazing. Oh, and it’s all completely lacking evidence. It can’t be tested. I can not know if any of them are telling the truth. That’s a problem for me. I shared this problem with Rachel. Fortunately for me, and you, she had a solution.
Rachel promised me that if I read the passages she shared with me and prayed sincerely about them, that I would receive an answer that the book of Mormon was true. She obviously hadn’t thought through any of it.
How can I, an atheist, pray sincerely to a god that I don’t believe exists? I can no more do this than write a sincere letter to Santa Claus requesting toys for next Christmas. It gets worse. The passage also states that I must have faith in Christ, which I don’t. It also mentions that I should remember how merciful the Lord has been, which I don’t. This is an impossible task.
I explained these things to her, yet she insisted that I go through with it anyway. She also thanked me for agreeing to give it a try. It’s circular. To receive this revelation that the book of Mormon is true, and thus know that a god exists, I must believe that a god exists and trust the book of Mormon. And how can I trust the book of Mormon? [begin chasing tail here]
This is a common problem with this sort of thing. I am willing to give them a fair chance. The problem is that they ask for impossibilities. She is safe with making such a promise. I can’t do what she asks. When it doesn’t work, there are plenty of excuses already built in. Falsifiability is an important part of determining if a claim is vaild, or even worth dealing with. It’s unreasonable to offer nonfalsifiable claims to someone with the expectation of being believed. But then this stuff never seems to be about reason anyway. I found this to be true with Rachel too.
Near the end of our 30+ minute phone conversation, Rachel revealed something interesting to me. She said that, no matter what the evidence, or lack of it, she would believe that the book of Mormon was right anyway. This was based on her feeling that I mentioned earlier. She is close-minded. The quest is over. The possibility that she is wrong is ruled out. Why should I take a person like this seriously? …especially about such fantastic and bizarre claims!
(My apologies for the wanderings of this post. I just sort of ranted through it.)
